(Recorded in 2/11/2022)
On this special episode. We discuss all about Matthew’s autism story, his involvement in Catholicism and priesthood, and autistic inclusivity in the church.
Transcript provided in this post. Also check out the podcast via Spotify, Itunes or Google Podcasts!
Onikage
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[Title Jingle]
Matthew
So my name is Father Matthew Schneider. I am a Roman Catholic priest and I was diagnosed not long after I was ordained. I kind of didn’t do well at my first ministry as a Catholic priest. I was assigned to be chaplain to a K through 12 school, and especially with the younger kids, I wasn’t picking up the social signs, which led about a year later to being diagnosed with autism.
Matthew
And then after that, I wrote a book that was just published in June of this year called God Loves the Autistic mind, which is a prayer guide for those of us who are on the spectrum and also for family and friends or those working with autistics.
Oni
Could you explain more on your autistic story, your autistic journey?
Matthew
So I always felt a little different when I was a kid. I was never really the kid who was the ideal one in that sense. Like I was always. The smart kid, but the kid who is very socially awkward, the kid who just go home and read books at after school and read the same books over and over at times. But I just thought, oh, that’s a little unusual. I didn’t think of anything very specific. And even back then I wouldn’t have met that diagnostic criteria we had in the 80s and early 90s. Like my current job is I teach theology at a university and I have a a doctoral degree in theology. And so back then.
Matthew
To get a diagnosis, you had to have intellectual delay. And, you know, getting a university doctoral degree and heavy intellectual delay are usually relatively incompatible realities. And so I was, I went along, I got through the seminary completely. In that sense, I was, I was always pretty smart. I always did pretty well in my classes. I was not- Nothing was like super red flag with social issues. I was never the most social person, but.
Matthew
You don’t have to be the most social person to be a good priest. A lot of a lot of priests, whether autistic or not, are recently sociable, but not the most social. And I just figured, okay, I’m more on that end of the spectrum of what’s acceptable. But then after I was ordained, I got assigned to be at a K through 12 school. And I’d done youth ministry with teenagers kind of more, but more just like evening things where I’d be, you know, with them for a few hours in the evening or for a weekend retreat or things like that, and just being in a K through 12 school.
Matthew
Where you were with the kids, 30 plus hours a week, it was a challenge I think as far as a kind of a little bit of a burnout and then also just not picking up the social signs. And so I was originally assigned there for three years but only lasted one year. And then I left, I was asked to leave really. And they said, well, maybe there’s at the time they said maybe there’s Asperger’s. It was right around when at least here in the US, Asperger’s was phased out as an official diagnosis.
Matthew
So, but I wouldn’t expect you know a principal at a school to be up to date with a change that happened three months ago in the in the diagnostic manual that was that I I went to one psychologist right away and I and I mentioned it, but in hindsight, he didn’t really do any tests that were specific to autism. He did basically what you would call the MMPI, the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Index. Which if they ever been to a psychologist and they give you like a A300 questionnaire, that’s like true, false. It’s probably the MMPI. It’s the most common kind of basic, basic thing, but the MMPI is not really a good tool at all for diagnosing autism. And then, and then about a year later, somebody encouraged me, hey, why don’t you try with another psychologist? And they actually gave me, gave me tests that are much more directed to to autism that they had to call up my mom and talk to her and see.
Matthew
Was Matthew different when he was a little little boy and things like that, and they also had tests where it was, where it was more like, OK, here’s a picture, tell a story about this picture. And there’s ways that autistic people tend to tell stories like that if just prompted, different from how neurotypical people would tend to tell the same story. And you could pick up those signs in a in a in an exercise like that a lot better than you can from a bunch of true and false questions that aren’t specifically about autism. There there can’t be true and false questions that are more about autism. What’s the one the the kind of radar map one. I forget the name of it now. I think it’s like the ASPI quiz, which is online, which is basically true false and it’s it’s a reasonably decent tool for somebody who’s not sure who’s an adult like I had.
Matthew
I have family members who are were like you’re not sure I said well try this test online it’s free. It’ll take you like 10 minutes and have not made 1020 minutes. I’m not actually like this huge commitment. You know hundreds of dollars in a psychologist and see how you do on this test is kind of an initial thing and that could be helpful. But this the MMPI is completely not about that. So that’s where that’s and that psychologist gave me a diagnosis in would it be January 2016? I think I did most of the tests in 2015 but then.
Matthew
You know, we met. We did. They did. They were, they were closed over Christmas. And so it was January 2016 by the time I got an unofficial diagnosis. At first I was kind of a little distraught in that sense, because I’d worked for all this to be a priest and everything, and you’re like, well, is that possible? But then as I started reading, I have like a whole whole bookshelf of autism books that I’ve read, I started to realize, first of all.
Matthew
All these things from my past life that I didn’t quite understand in the past, I started to understand and I also realized ways I could do certain ministries in, in the priesthood. And I also realized the need for somebody who is a priest or somebody who’s very involved. So that that to make a book like the book that I just came out with, a guide for autistic prayer or a guide for or other books that are that are in that realm because there’s only. A handful of articles here and there on autistic prayer or autistics going to church or things like that, when I do think that there’s a huge area that the church can help out to be more accommodating, more accepted to autistic individuals in the church. And I and I, within a few months of being diagnosed, I realized this, that I probably at some point have to go public, have to talk about it more publicly, and not just be kind of this is my little secret.
Matthew
And so in 2019, on Autism Awareness Day, April 2nd, I made a public announcement of that. I had already become relatively well known in Catholic circles for kind of just explaining Catholic teaching on the Internet, on social media. I already had. Right now I have like 6065 thousand followers on Twitter and a few thousand other places. I already had a decent amount, like 40-50 thousand. So. So I couldn’t just kind of.
Matthew
Tell it in stage, it was kind of like I either had my immediate circle, the people who I saw every day, my and my immediate family, or I had basically announced it to the whole world. I didn’t see any way to make it like a second level without going all the way out. And so I just did that and made a very a public statement to search for online. You can find it very easily. I just kind of explaining my situation and how I came to this and how.
Matthew
I realized as I was doing, as I was going through it, as I was reading afterwards, that yes, I definitely was autistic and yes, I can see all these things that in my own life that reflect back and I can see in in that autism.
Oni
That’s an awesome journey and it’s always good to discover yourself. And this is the first on our podcast. We actually have a a priest, an autistic priest as well.
Matthew
It just well yes, I mean I think there there are a number of. People who are on the spectrum who are in the priesthood, obviously, whether you’re a Catholic priest or an Anglican priest or any other kind of religious minister. Most of them require some kind of university. So that would that would often exclude those who have more severe intellectual delay as well, like the more serious intellectual delay from being able to be priests and ministers. But I do think there is a decent percentage, 1 to 2%, who are on the spectrum in ministry. And I think that a lot of times we’ll tend to support certain ministries that help us out or that we can handle better. Like I’ve talked to different priests, we’re autistic and some of them have different things like one he he really works well in a hospital chaplaincy because he’s not good talking to a big crowd, but he’s fine talking one-on-one to a family and things. So that’s.
Matthew
And then we need, we need priests or ministers doing that. So it’s he’s helped you out so many people in that way.
Oni
It’s definitely a good thing to hear and it’s great to see more near divergent folks in various places because we like to have a different mindsets and different places. And it’s just, it’s just lovely to see and I love your presence online. It’s just so wholesome. It’s like when you originally reached out to me and I was just finished the season, I’m like. You have that, you would be a good guest. You have such a positive attitude and it’s nice to see him on autistic folks in religion and away and I’ve not gone deep dive on that yet. So it’s it’s nice to talk about. And also the book you mentioned earlier, God loves the autistic mind and I have looked at bits and pieces of it and I I I just again, your positive attitude shines through and I love how there’s like. For the the prayer guides for autistic folks, and it’s how it’s written and also the delicate nature of like person, person, first language and all that. Like- no Identity language, sorry, I get this to be mixed up like autistic.
Matthew
Yeah.
Oni
No. Is this the first of autism? I know just.
Matthew
I mean, as I was going through it myself, I realized, you know, being, you know, going with autistic versus with autism. Seemed more logical to me. But then we also I also looked at surveys of autistic people and all of them seemed to very strongly prefer that depending on the survey. And the exact way the question was answered is it. It varies between about two people who prefer autistic to with awesome to about four people who prefer autistic to with autism and and so it’s very clearly a a much preferred term and I don’t take offense to those who really prefer the other term. And I even say when I say that I say look.
Matthew
If you prefer that term just, you know, substitute that in your mind whenever you read it. I I’m not here to police language in that sense. I’m here to present it, and to present it in a way that I think’s proper. And it presented in a way that, from all the evidence I could see, is the way that most autistics would prefer it.
Oni
Yeah, totally. I let people choose what they want to choose. Yeah, I’ll, I’ll say what I prefer, but if someone says something else, it’s like that’s your choice, and I’ll let you have that. laugh
Matthew
Yeah, I. I usually don’t get offended unless somebody tells me ohh, you can’t call yourself autistic. That’s when I’m like, OK, like.
Oni
Yeah, That’s when it’s a Problem!
Matthew
I’m autistic. The majority of autistic people agree with me and you’re a non autistic person telling me how we can call ourselves that. That seems a little much, but beyond that I I don’t really get too too much into the language debate.
Oni
Yeah, I I’ve said I’ve, I’ve, I’ve seen it in multiple views and I’ve made a blog post about it before, but. I don’t get into the petty arguments and I’m like, I’ve seen drama for so long, I’m just gonna. I’ll just leave them to it. I’ll just leave them be. But all I can. All I can hope is that people try and see the other perspectives and hopefully try and get along.
Matthew
Well, yeah, I mean, I’m not. And even that, like I say also in the book, I say, you know, if you some people who are diagnosed with Asperger’s like to keep that term. I think you’re in the UK, so I think ask for there’s still technical diagnosis there, isn’t it? Or is it? Because I don’t know.
Oni
I think it depends, actually. OK, we’re a funny one. Some places still use it, some places don’t. ASD is like the modern change. But
(M: OK) I’m, I’ve had, I have family members that got diagnosed maybe a couple of years before me. And then there’s me. They had aspargers and I and then I had ASD, even though we’re (M: OK) even. No. Some of them may had similar symptoms to me. I wouldn’t say the same, but it’s one of those.
Matthew
Things I totally well I’m I’m familiar so in the US they usually the the DSM the diagnosis and Cisco Manual of psychological conditions and that removed Asperger’s in 2014 I think whereas a lot of other countries use what’s called the ISD International Classification of something disorders or diseases or something like that and and the ICD at least last time I looked still had. Still had Asperger’s in a separate as a as a kind of sub diagnosis of autism. Whereas the the DSM which is used in Canada in the US which is what I’m familiar with has gotten rid of that that that category completely. So that’s why I said I I am much more familiar with the DSM and because. I’m from Canada, but I live in the States and so those are the two cultures I’m really familiar with.
Oni
I did read that part in the book saying that if someone prefers to use Asperger’s, then that’s fair. It’s like if you got diagnosed with something and then five years time they change it. If you got diagnosed with the old label, you still use the old label. It’s like. Like septicemia, it’s now known as sepsis. I don’t know if I mentioned this in the podcast before, but when I was a newborn I almost. I said this to like everyone I know, but I’m going to say this in the podcast. I almost died twice because I was nine weeks premature. I think I was. And I got I I developed septicemia, which is now called sepsis, blood poisoning.
Oni
And I was actually looking to survive, so.
Matthew
Ohh, that that that can be very dangerous. Yeah, I was. I was the opposite. I was two weeks late and I was 11 pounds or five kilos, which is very big.
Oni
I was like, I I was like incubator alien baby. Yeah, I was.
Matthew
I was, I was kind of late as, as, as Mcduff said I, Mcduff says at the end of Macbeth. I was not born but ripped untimely from my mother’s womb. I was born. I was born by C-section because I was like late and big. And I guess I didn’t want to come out. So the doctor was like, well, at this point we’re going to give you a C-section because this baby’s late. This baby is really big.
Oni
So it’s amazing how things developed though, and for autistic folks especially have some have like scary births and that and. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s it’s a miracle in itself.
Matthew
Well, yeah, I mean, life, life itself is almost is in a way, a miracle. So it’s.
Oni
Yeah. But I do like it’s I do like the whole how you give comfort for autistic folks when it comes to the religion and and for those who are in the Catholic religion it’s I I think it’s great to see a a near divergent. A section where anyone for all minds can see that there’s like autistic priests and even if it’s not autistic, could be ADHD or anything. I just think it’s great to see and I’m glad to actually have this time to talk to you about all that and any standout moments as you as as a priest and as an artistic priest in your experiences.
Matthew
Well, I think a few moments just kind of stand out in various ways. I think sometimes there’s been a few. You cases where people have told me that you know seeing my videos or that really helped them especially with their kids who are autistic, who felt like felt very negatively like ohh, is God punishing me or something like that. And then they see Okay, well it’s a priest and and so it’s not just God punish me. It’s God giving you this opportunity and they can they can really view autism in a more neutral or positive way to say look we have our strengths. We have our weaknesses and. There is certain things which are disabling in that sense, but we also have our strengths and I think that that’s an important aspect to to look at, especially for kids. So you’re not just looking at ohh, the weakness, weakness, weakness. And I think for myself also just a few times when I have celebrated mass at parishes where they have what they would do is they would call it like a sensory friendly mass. So basically you instead of all the normal stuff in church, you follow the same order, the same structure because.
Matthew
The Catholic mass and usually the angle can tend to be very structured like which is helpful for us on the spectrum. A lot of other churches tend to be a lot less structured. I know for myself thinking back a few times went to a non to a kind of evangelical Baptist type church. I was like the kind of the lack of knowing where thing what what was gonna happen next was was not helpful for me. They’ll do all that, but then to have a sensory friendly mass what they do is they’ll turn down the volume on the speakers, turn down the lights.
Matthew
Use the same songs every week so it’s even more kind of exact like in a Catholic mass, usual one you have, okay, there’s gonna be a song here to start off and there’s gonna be a song to end. But most of them they change them every week. But are these ones, they’ll use the same ones every week. So then it’s it helps kind of have that that regularity. And it also helps even just the fact that it is a sensory family mass. It is a place for autistic people. So if someone is there and they’re.
Matthew
Stemming very wildly. People are not going to take offense like they might in other in other situations. And I think that that’s been, that’s been a huge help for a lot of autistic people to get to to get to church because we want autistics to have that opportunity to live out the religion in that reality too. It because religion is 1 aspect of life and I think people have that. People have you know you have your job and you have your relationship, but you also have a relationship.
Matthew
That’s kind of like broader with, with, with whatever you would view as the divine. Like I would clearly view it as like, you know, God in the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But even if in religion, if you have a different view of the divine there, that is an aspect of human life and that I think is important to open up for autistics.
Oni
That’s really cool to hear with the sensory friendly masks, I I really think that’s so cool. Because I’m an advocate for more accessibility, whether it’s like location events or even like video games as well, and they’re getting more common whether it’s visual or like peripheral controllers. I just, it’s just, it’s something, it’s just something that needs to be encouraged more and with like churches and ceremonies. You usually don’t see that and hearing that it’s slowly happening is absolutely fantastic. And also with your book I also love that you briefly mentioned it earlier with in general as like the encouragement of imperfections and things like stemming and that and it’s not a bad thing and and and embrace the autistic person which. I find it’s lovely to hear because a lot of people wouldn’t connect religion and autistic acceptance. It’s I I I’m so happy to see that genuinely. And even though I’m I’m not. I’ve not got set religion myself. But I was, I was. I had a Christian period in my teens, so I kind of can see.
Oni
How this works for autistic folks I can see in multiple voice of you and it’s just lovely to see. I I what I like about like certain religious communities is the whole some together togetherness. Everyone’s just like friendly to each other and help each other out. So yeah.
Matthew
Yeah, no, definitely. And I think, I think for example, you’re talking about this dindian prayer, one of the things that we often think of in kind of a general sense and prayers you think, OK like. Prayer you have to be still and you have to, you know, fold your hands like this. You have to, you have to, you know, kneel or or whatever posture sitter or whatever. And it’s that that stillness, and the idea for the neurotypical person is that stillness should help them to have a still mind so that they can focus on that interior conversation with God in their in their mind. You know, you speak to God in your, your mind, in your heart. And the reality is for us is that very often, if we try and be still, that will actually.
Matthew
Take us away from that goal it. Whereas if I’m stimming, whether whichever way it’s stimming. I know for myself a lot of it is more a vestibular stem. Like I will be like when I pray I I’ll often be like in a rocking chair going back and forth because that kind of that vestibular stem or pacing in a way which is the same thing. It’s because the vestibular, the vestibular system is kind of your body sense of where it is in space and so vestibular stimming tends to be a little.
Matthew
A little larger perspective than just typical stereotypical like hand flapping or things like that. And so those are the type of things. And even if I don’t know, I think this is only a recording audio. But you can see if you’re watching it and you would notice that I as I’m in my my office chair here, I’m keep rotating back and forth my office chair while we’re talking, which is kind of the same thing for me. In that sense is is a kind of a little bit of a a way of stimming to have that kind of vestibular movement that helps out to focus.
Oni
Yeah. That’s I understand. I understand that because I do it myself. Or at the at the moment as it’s audio, um. I’m holding a a shiny pen and just twisting it around so we’re both stimming in some way. But I do like that. It’s like, um.
Oni
It’s it’s kind of like a.
Matthew
Meditative.
Oni
Meditative. I can’t even bloody speak! it’s a meditative. It’s definitely a meditative state. And well.
Matthew
Well, yeah, because like, but the whole idea of of stimming at least in large part is to kind of is to regulate your kind of sensory experience. So you’re at kind of more of a baseline level so that you’re more that which allows you then to focus more in your mind and your heart and things, right, so. So and so with your a lot of people we think of oh, I’m still, I’m focused and that could be that tends to be the state, the state for neurotypical people. But for us oftentimes the the sense experience is coming in is distracted into us if we’re trying to be still. And so moving is how we can actually focus and so the idea is if we’re going to. We have a we have a verse in the song which people quote a lot of times be still and know that I am God and the idea there is is is to be still in your heart and your mind. And for us that actually is probably not being perfectly still in our actions and and I think that that’s a that’s a challenge for other people to understand and and I do have that as an example. There is kind of how we could how our prayer is is different from a lot of neurotypical prayer some neurotypicals probably do this or some.
Matthew
People who have other conditions like ADHD probably do this, probably have similar realities, yeah. But that’s, that’s that’s where I’m where I one of the examples of something where our our neurology and our differences in neurology affect the way we pray. The goal of prayer is always the same. The goal of prayer is that conversation with God, that conversation with with the Lord. But that conversation is interior conversation in my heart, my mind. It’s not. I’m not speaking out loud. I don’t hear his voice in my ears. I hear it in my heart, my mind. And so I need to look at what helps me to have that kind of that, that kind of openness, that stillness in my heart and my mind so I can talk to him. And that’s where I think a lot of stemming can be very helpful for autistic people when they pray.
Oni
Totally. Before we finish up, before you mentioned your list of social media. Any other comments, anything that we’ve not spoke about yet, just anything really?
Matthew
Well I think, I think that some of those are the main things, just different things in prayer with that like stimming different things like a sensory friendly mass and such. So if you wanna mention my social media, so my I have my book is God loves the artistic mind prayer guide for those in the spectrum and those who love us you can find on Amazon. I think Amazon UK as well, it’s on and on other electronic ones, Pauline, Pauline is the publisher. They are a international group, so they I think they have bookstores in most countries. I don’t know as far as shipping whether Amazon’s cheaper and all that it might be. And then and then my social media, I kind of have two in that sense. One is autistic priest, which is much more autism related for much more for yard ends.
Matthew
If you search for my name initially, you’ll probably find Fr Matthew LC, which is kind of more general Catholic stuff. I mentioned autism there occasionally, but it’s not the focus like the autistic priest and and so that’s that. Those are the main 2 social media you can find me at throughout the Internet. The LC there is just for my religious community. I’m a leisure of Christ so.
Matthew
If you think of priest, you have the the Dawson priest. You might have like Franciscans or Jesuits or something like that, right? If you kind of think of priests, leisures of Christ are kind of like the Franciscans or the Jesuits. The exact details are probably a little bit beyond here, but that’s why the LC is in my name on my social media. And then if you search from me online, you’ll find it after my name as well.
Oni
That’s awesome. Well then, Father Matthew, it was great. Haven’t you? Here in the Austhish podcast?
Matthew
Great to be here Oni. God bless you. Hopefully it works out well and a lot of people are helped by it.
Onikage
Thank you for listening to the Aut-Ish podcast if you’d like more accessibility, the transcripts are provided at Aut-Ish dot wordpress.com. Thank you for listening and stay tuned for future episodes. This is Onikage from Aut-Ish signing out.
[Music plays then fades out]
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